RE: Splinterlands DHF Proposal
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It'll be interesting to see if the Splinterlands community itself has enough HP to pass this proposal.
Talking about how other chains offer "better" handouts. Here the consumer or in this case the gamer has the ability to be the provider, and the support (in this case $2777 per day) comes at no real cost to that consumer/community, provided they've staked some HP and participate. If that potential was fully understood and realized, it becomes clear (at least to me), that deal is hard to beat.
I will not be supporting this proposal. I don't play the game. Was never my cup of tea. I liked seeing it here though.
Several years and thousands of people. Surely the Splinterlands community has enough HP to pass this and if not, I'd have to ask all how that's even possible. For years we're told it brings value to Hive, so where is it? The amount of fan art I've seen rewarded over the years for example. Surely rewarding/supporting that endless stream of content (which doubled as free marketing)would lead to receiving support in return for something like this proposal. Surely a game that paid players just for playing would lead to having the ability to support a proposal like this. Surely, after all these years, there's something to show for it. If not, there are some valuable lessons to be learned.
Its interesting that you think that the Splinterlands players should have enough HIVE to be able to pass this on their own. That would mean Splinterlands players have more HIVE than non-Splinterlands HIVE owners. Please note those players would also own all their ingame Splinterlands assets too.
Its up to you how you draw your valuable lessons in life, but its kind of a weird way to look at it if you ask me.
I don't think it's weird and your defensive tone makes me think you're misinterpreting my intention here.
The decentralized nature affords everyone the opportunity to have a say. So let's say a gaming community showed up here, on Hive. Thousands of them, eager to support a new project. A project that needs funding. That funding comes at no real cost. Each individual still owns their HP. If they want funding, they'd have a better chance of receiving it if they had their own HP. For instance, why should I support it when I don't even know those people and don't care about their product. It's not up to me, it's up to them. Since it's such a great deal and can lead to projects receiving funding, I think this behavior should be encouraged.
So yes, I stand by my words and think it'll be interesting to see if the Splinterlands community has enough HP to pass this. It's a valuable lesson in the sense other communities can see how communities and projects get funded here. That could lead to more interest in the chain and the token.
It's not Hive's fault if this proposal doesn't pass. The Splinterlands community is at fault. Hive is an inanimate object.
I don't want to support this because I'd rather encourage and see you all support yourselves. It's a good deal and should be embraced. Your success is not my responsibility.
I think there's enough support behind the Splinterlands community to pass this. If not, well, wtf? There's thousands of you. What happened to all the money? And now you want more? Those are some of the questions I'd be asking.
I wasn't being defensive. I think its fine for you and everyone to vote how they want too, so no worry there either.
I certainly don't think it is Hive's fault if this didn't pass, nor do I think it would be Splinterland's fault if it didn't pass. Sometimes there is simply no fault, and things happen how they should happen.
My point is that if every project that asks for funding must have their users own half the total token, then there will only be ONE project that could ever get funded. You might not see a problem with that, and maybe that's how you think every funding should go so you vote no to everything... and that's cool if so! Cheers
I say similar things to content creators who feel they deserve more support. They're free to encourage outside money to enter this ecosystem and support their work with votes. It's a great deal to the consumer. They actually earn to be supportive. Same goes for the Splinterlands community. They could support this with their own HP, and earn on top of that, plus see their project get funding.
And if I see thousands of people step up to the plate to support this but you need 90k HP to get pushed over the 29 million HP required to pass this, I might change my mind and support it because then I can actually see the value.
That's a fair way to look at it. Cheers and thanks for the dialogue on this!
All good Dave. I didn't write that expecting the response to go smoothly lol.
Good luck here. And for the record, I do have a lot of respect for this project and the community behind it.
Back at you noname and lol on the smooth convo :)
I do appreciate you taking the time to engage, and I'm also glad to see that you have respect for the project even if you vote against the proposal itself. That's nice to hear and best wishes to you going forward!!!
I've returned briefly to offer some perspective. Initially you made it sound like I'm setting the bar way too high for the Splinterlands community.
I want to show you something. It's a Thread I published to this chain a few months ago.
https://inleo.io/threads/view/nonameslefttouse/re-leothreads-2ja2szhqx
"Fun Fact: The "middle class" on Hive is stronger than you think. Orcas with 37M HP and Dolphins with 27M HP. That's more than enough power to pass a proposal for example..."
Was accurate at the time of writing. "Dolphins" alone have nearly enough HP to push this proposal into approved status.
This is why people need to show up/participate, rather than feeling like it's so far out of reach they shouldn't even try.
And it's worth noting, when I say "Splinterlands Community", I know for a fact some have a lot of HP and some have very little. Combined, you're a powerful bunch capable of great things.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of this and I wasn't aware when I wrote the original comment that it wasn't a 50% threshold to pass. (my premise was flawed in the beginning)
I definitely agree with you that people need to be involved to make things happen. I also agree that people on all DAOs (including ours) should realize that owning their governance token gives them power collectively, so they need to learn how to use it if they want results they seek. I think many people feel that its just "the whales" that decide things, but in reality the mid level voters carry more weight than they realize.
Again I appreciate the positive and constructive engagement, its much appreciated no matter how this prop works out.
Back when I published those thoughts, it was an attempt to dispel some of the myths. It's not a whale's club. Even in the comment section here we can see folks perpetuating those myths.
So I'm not supporting the proposal. I'm supporting the fact you're all perfectly capable of supporting it.
I've been watching closely. And for years I've been under the impression Splinterlands was, big. Many of the community members said so themselves. At times even boastfully.
As of this writing I'm seeing only 465 votes backing this proposal. 66 by proxy meaning they've not engaged.
I don't know much about Splinterlands or the community. It would be incredibly irresponsible of me to support this blindly. So I sit, wait, and watch. Actions speak louder than words.
I think it is fair that you watch such things and draw the conclusions that you feel are appropriate. I know I would do the same thing if it was a Splinterlands DAO vote. Honestly I'm thrilled to see you paying attention and being open about what you are looking for, that's all anyone could hope for in my opinion.
To get a proposal funded you need way less than 50%. Not even 10%.
Thank you for explaining this, my premise was definitely flawed from the beginning on this!
There is absolutely no way the Splinterlands community has enough HP on their own to pass this. If that was the case, Splinterlands would basically own the platform and we could ask for much more and always get it approved. That would be very unhealthy.
LEO community passed theirs. Some of them are also part of Splinterlands community. I don't see how encouraging the Splinterlands community to get behind this and support their own project with their own money is a bad thing.
I'm not saying that encouraging the Splinterlands community to support their own project is a bad thing. What I'm saying is that it is impossible to pass it with just our support. I doubt we'd even reach 50% of the necessary vote power.
And I think, after this many years and that many community members, that could change and together you can work towards self sustainability. Building up that foundation could have started several years ago but since it hasn't, perhaps today would be a good time to start.
I think it's coming from the wrong place to assume players hold HP, most I assume hold ingame assets and ingame currencies tied to spl. the @steemmonster account afaik even provides people with delegations, or did so in the past so they can play the game, now we moved onto RC being delegated itself which makes HP delegations obsolete for this task.
It would sure be nice if the game would place more notice or encourage players to become socially active on chain which, even though my opinions may be quite outdated, I didn't see much of in the past when on the website. With many users not even being aware that there was this whole other universe of things they could do with the keys and accounts they had paid for to get when diving into spl and with just very few artists and social users already aware of hive getting the benefits of curation.
At the end of the day, if we did have more projects like SPL there'd be a "hidden" cost and hodl pressure building both on the projects and our resource credits which ultimately means you'll need to acquire HP to provide your community with the freedom to transact.
We may have been a bit too early to jump the gun on making RC itself a pool that can be leased/bought, which I'm sure close to no one does at this time and even at the height of things barely anyone did with HP itself aside from leasing it for profit, barely anyone leased it for being able to use the chain or providing your community/players/product users with actions to use the blockchain. So getting to that place where RC is scarce and required may take an even longer time and bigger influx of users to reach now than it did before but in a way that also makes our chain more scalable even if we don't need it currently.
We're just way ahead of things on the backend it feels like and more focus should shift on actually bringing in people here, whether through games or some of our other countless projects that make web3 stand out from web2 with value going to users rather than just the creators.
I know the community exists though, even if they're quiet in the social arena. Just look at all the views Splinterlands posts receive locally. And if Splinterlands decides to go elsewhere because funding, those people go with them. And those people also lose ALL the benefits they could receive if they were to be the ones behind pushing this proposal through. Strong chance they're not even aware of those perks and would follow blindly. That turns into a missed opportunity for them, not Hive. Meanwhile the well dries up fast elsewhere. Put your money where your mouth is here, as a group; you actually have a future.
But only when the potential is fully realized and the concepts understood. And that can't happen without some asshole like me coming along to be like this in a comment section lol.
You talk about bringing people in. That's something I'd like to see as well. If I support this, that's equal to 900 people with 100 HP each. I push a button so they can sit on their hands, enjoy a game, get paid, until this half million runs out. 900 then expect another bail out. And it just goes on like that.
Communities have strength in numbers. So I insist they get out there and flex.
I don't disagree with some of the things you said, that's also why I would've wanted more players to be active on chain so they can diversify or at least earn more HP and broaden their horizons with the activity that's possible here. It'd be a bit much to expect them to vote the proposal into funding, though.
I don't disagree with what you said either. Didn't touch on it simply because I've said things similar over the years.
So, Hive would be the planet; the ground everyone walks on. On Hive, much like the Earth, we have several communities. Splinterlands being one of them.
We're missing the roads, in a sense. Splinterlands isn't the only community that makes it difficult for people to travel and enjoy the sights and sounds of the other cities. Often the communities aren't tied together, acting more like distant islands with very little trade.
That can change of course, but I've noticed the problem for several years now, pointed it out several times, got nowhere, and only saw the problem get worse.
I don't think it's a bit much for them to be able to support themselves. Had years to prepare. And I'd rather see thousands of people stepping up to the plate and taking action rather than just a handful of large stakeholders. All that does is create the illusion the project is popular and on its way to bigger and better things. If the community itself can't put their money where their mouth is and back this on their own, they've nothing to lose and will just carry on with the same habits that placed them in this position now. If it's such a big success and valuable, why the easy out? Doesn't make sense to me. We're all part of a community here somehow. Splinterlands is my neighbor. Why are they asking me to gas up my mower and mow their lawn in order to protect their property value? Mow your own damn grass. And don't tell me with all those people living over there you can't afford gas and don't have enough able bodies to get the job done lol.
These communities have strength in numbers and can do so much more for themselves but won't if they're bailed out so easily every time. I'd like to see the projects succeed combined with communities being the reason they're so successful.
My message to this Splinterlands community is this: If this is something you want, get in here and participate no matter how much HP you have. Nobody exists here to hold your hand. Your hands exist so you can use them.
Just revisiting this post, checking up on the progress and whatnot.
Perhaps I misspoke. To clarify, this is what I said.
I'm not saying it's their sole responsibility. What I'm saying is it'll be interesting to see how far they can push it up, alone. I was under the impression they had a lot. Interested in seeing what they're capable of, as a community.
And I'm still thinking there's a lot more out there somewhere but we're not seeing it due to lack of interest in participating. Some are unaware. Some are inactive. Many contributing factors which I am aware of, of course.
My position wasn't and isn't something like, "F you. Do it yourself."
I see that support trickling in though. I see a good range of HP levels. I think there's more to come yet, from the Splinterlands community.
And I'll support this once I feel confident they did their best. Got a trick up my sleeve as well. Can double my voting power since I vote for the return as well. 180k sitting on the table for them. But only if they go first.
Does that make me less of a prick? lol
I'd love to see these systems running at their full potential.
No, They would just need enough to get over the return value.
Thanks for pointing that out by the way. I saw the error but felt I didn't have the time to take the conversation in that direction so let it slide.
Yeah, it is a side case. However it is also good to remember that considering the length of Splinterlands on Hive, some could have transferred earnings into Hive also, not just the other way.
Splinterlands community had several years to prepare for a day like this and could easily (EASILY) rise to the occasion. If this is what they want, the power is in their hands. Half million dollars sounds like a lot but to each one of these individuals, there is no cost in supporting it. No money? BS. Those cards are not worthless. Find some buyers, transfer some funds, support project, guarantee its future to the ones buying those assets by supporting this proposal. Much easier than trying to convince me a trend reversal isn't necessary and it's somehow my responsibility as Hive stakeholder to support this so they can continue.
Can't build a house without a foundation.
"Not allowed." I spoke to you under that post of yours. Here's another example where in society, like I said there, it's the regular folk who will refuse to take action. The power is their hands but it's easier to point at someone else and expect results from them. If this doesn't go through, "It's Hive's fault!"
No. It isn't. And I don't see this project moving elsewhere as a threat even though the wording here in the post could come across sounding like one.
I'll just view it as yet another group of humans completely oblivious to their full potential.
thanks for the clarification @tarazkp!
Probably, you don't know, these proposals accepted by approx. 20% of total active HP.
So, since SPL played a big role in the up stick and after the down one, as well, I just suppose, they should have 20% of total active HP.
In reality, I know, they don't have, as they don't really know Hive economy part, never was intention of SPL people to 'educate' them.
I also think, the DHF proposals should have at least 40% total active HP approval rate (more likely 50%+), but Hive in this point of view, simply not decentralized at all.
In that case, people could block the nonsense money flows, like financing racing car, croatian holiday, never seen, hidden Hive movie etc.
Since DHF Hive, money created out of thin air, and put huge sell pressure, it all should go back for ads, marketing, community building, spread word in web2 through influencers, streamers etc.
Whoever get this money, they don't even bother to make a real financial report (look what valueplan, and leofinance is doing), even if they promise. They max make an amatur post without real numbers, details, and they call it professional project management...😂
Lots of people should be SACKED OUT asap from the project management, near to DHF money, even just for having the smallest chance for Hive.
But it's just a buddy circle, (how politicians, big corps, oligarch circles) not a coincidence this Matt guy finish his proposal with the Croatian holiday... i mean wtf real business that have with proposal? nothing.😉
so how things go, just take it, it's a one way street, and who are onboard, in the circle, care about the small amount today in their pocket, not actually use DHF money for the right purpose, and take the big money tomorrow.
Yes I didn't know that only 20% was required to pass the prop. Thanks for the detailed explanation.
follow dalz, he makes good stats, he is one of the witnesses. rarely he makes stats about SPL, too. so good to read his posts. (if you are an spl user, good to share it amongst them, so they will get a bit more info, how Hive works, currently stands)
about the active HP (and need 28-30M for proposal accepting):
https://peakd.com/hive-133987/@dalz/what-is-the-share-of-the-hive-power-that-is-actively-votingcurating-or-june-2024
excellent info, thanks Pokermaria!
What are you on about dude? Freechain was seen at a festival and at last Hivefest. It was picked up last month by one of the former Golden Globes judges to push to international markets.
Because it has wider appeal its not put up on youtube or elsewhere.
Yes, I know, that means 99%+ of active Hive users haven't seen it yet. (anyway, that part is not important.)
I read your last post about it. And no offence, but from average user point of view, it looks like this. The kinda top secret cia movie about area-51.
Atm, it's just another project, what about nobody made financial report, but definitely cost a lot, and have just future promise. And correct me if I am wrong, it's ready since a year. After given time, people go with stereotypes, especially, if that's pretty much a safe bet.
Since there is no 'Hive welcome page' with all-in-one info about how it works, front-ends, dapps, dao, everything, video tutorials about basics, especially about sign-up + regularly updated, I see very small chance it will change things.
AND: it will cost again lots of money. probably that's part of the reason why valueplan raised the quarterly amount to 300k. So I can imagine how much it cost.
Yes, I 100% stand for that Hive need a serious project manager with relevant successful background in web2 marketing with active business network, next to knowing web3.
In the end, atm ii's the same, very few people decide what for the money goes, and I am also 100% sure, they got paid (not coincidence even valuplan last post call them P.M.). They failed to do (at least successfully) their job.
Obviously, for web3, especially for soc media, all marketing, ads must happen online. Very basic, cost effective, and effective. (I don't say ask a relevant person, because I exactly know, that you know, rally car won't bring users, even expensive google ads are much more effective.)
I don't question your intention, but the money what just get wasted, could be used much better. The DAU numbers proving, it's not used effectively atm at all. (Hard to use in any worse way.)
For example, just paying couple of grand for a streamer with 0.5-1M+ active followers for 10-15 hours and sit down, stream live with a whale, regular Hive user, walk through registration, basics + make him/her a community, delegate big amount of HP for a month would bring a lot more users than all the valueplan, leofinance stuff did in the last 1+ year...
Anyway, I don't care much, sold my few k Hive when I've got the full picture, now just should get out with min. loss from the lovely games here... :)
However, honestly, GL, and all the best! Time will tell, I am the totally wrong, or others!
Thats what you called out, thats what I answered. the point of the film wasnt to make a film for Hivers. That was made clear many times. That would be a waste. The point was to have the film picked up by someone in the industry that will push it towards the international market. That has happened.
This not coinciding with whatever timeline you set for the film is not something I can do anything about.
im listed up there. I havent been paid a dime. Not for the car or for Vibes. You can track all payments yourself.
Youtubers, with 1 mil followers charge 20-30k USD for a 15 second promotion. For crypto youtubers double that. I dont know about streamers but I assume its in that ballpark.
How do I know that? Because I talked to these people.
Youre the type of guy that will spread negativity, falsely, on one chain and then move to another so happy you left, until you realize things elsewhere are a 100 times worse. ofc, cognitive dissonance will kick in at that point.
There is nothing better than Hive. Hive is whatever the community make it into.. You wont get that freedom anywhere else. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
But then again... most people are followers, peasants in need of an overlord to do good by them. someone for them to cheer. a benevolent dictator. A daddy. Someone to baby them.
I think its sad that for all the promise crypto is making no one wants the freedom decentralization gives and do something with it. theyre rather complain and do nothing.
Obviusly, I haven't called out that, even added, it's not important, Hivers seen or not. I called out: not a single potential new user seen it yet. (No need to ride on words, turn them in and out, when you exactly know what I meant, I don't suppose about you any mental sickness, because you have different opinion, point of view.)
:) I actually was involved in organizing streams like that. So I know the pricing, it's way less. At least few years ago twitch streamers did 10 hours within 2 weeks for 3-6k based on followers, average live watchers, all was over half M followers (Since then, I heard, they do it even cheaper, as twitch cut rewards.)
Perfect example why Hive need a serious person, not silly kids playing with everybody's money, and can't even make a financial report, what for they waste it. Sorry, but you don't even understand how, with what benefits, discounts it could be best advertised in the most cost effective way. You just don't even see the benefit of Hive regarding this one either.
:) I checked those, I saw, plenty of these paid in front, strangly, found only very few ones, who return the left-overs...
But you know, it's untrackable for average user, and as I am sure, nobody takes really care of it. Anyway, not even that's the point.
Sounds like someone has taken it upon themselves to call attention to general problems with DHF and the few, who really decide what for it will be spent. I wonder why?
Hive itself didn't do anything since years, the spike was done by SPL, and general hype. Wasting DHF money what should be spent on ads, marketing, onboarding and financing new projects (not with this system, giving to them the vote, money basically in front, and do nothing, if they deliver nothing), not spent on operational costs of the countless front-ends, what from 2 would be more than enough... etc., etc.
What freedom? The DHF financed opinion based censorship machine? or the DHF 20% of total active HP proposal approval rate, what against you can't even vote? very few accounts can control it.
And the above just shows, the real DHF money handlers, in practice, dont want any kind of FREEDOM here, they want to be the LORDS, and wait for the plebs to follow, whatever they think, do. No matter how long, how bad it is working or not...
And me, a non-follower, just called out mentally sick, because my opinion oppose, and you are probably personally feel offended (good feedback, at least I know, sure it included some truth), can't take it as progressive criticism.
Hive need serious people who are in charge over the DHF voted money for ads, marketing, onboarding etc. goes for.
Just as a last point: since years, nobodoy from this valuplan team could make a single successful story, onboarding thousands of people, who are more or less permanently stay.
(not mention the 5-6 front-end operational financing nonsense, especially leo)
DAU, MAU numbers are the obvious feedback, how badly you guys spend that money. But sure, no worries, I know, I have the mental problems! 🤣
Give me some names. If its not expensive it might work.
Nobody decides anything here. Everybody does their own thing. Whales generally dont even talk to each other. There is no "the few" anything.
Come on. Censorship machine on Hive. Its literally the fundamental feature of Hive. Censorship resistance. This isnt just wrong. Its stupid to claim such an absolutely absurd thing.
Who are these lords? I know literally everyone here of any repute and what all of them basically do. Where are these lords? I havent seen any.
Its actually the lack of control whales are willing to take that is an actual problem.
I onboarded more than a thousand people through Vibes in a couple months. All visible onchain. Vibes is VP funded and therefor those users are by default here due to their funding.
About streaming sponsorships, ads, I asked for quotes, share it in a post later, and i will tag you and the so called project managers. (Took 1 hour to ask from 20+ streamers... :) )
I think, the fact, it's like this is the stupid, not calling it out.
Lots of people left because of that. I've seen it, how everybody regarding many topics, especially about hyped ones, just few: covid-communism, politics, war etc. So not even the 'bar fight' category things.
And yes, they don't ban, just downvote, what leads to the same result. Less users, because of DHF founded employees have different opinion.
Sure.
Nobody is entitled to any rewards here. Theyre happy to post to twitter for free, yet a downvote on post that would earn them nothing elsewhere is a problem?
No. Theyre the problem. There is a psychological aspect to it but the fact of selfmoderation is that in fact people will be the ones moderating. If someone wants a centralized authority to do it for them, then they should go back to web2
Bloody hell with the general greedy mindset here generally... I didn't even mention earning, what I meant the person reputation goes down, so posts, comment won't be visible anymore.
hivewatchers is a centralized authourity, pretty much same like facebook has the moderators, they paid for it. Only difference - what about I am not sure - they decide what opinion they don't want here regarding hyped topics, not their employer.
so in practice, it's the same like web2
No. Hivewatchers dont downvote based on political affiliation or anything like that. Its just spammers and scammers. They make mistakes but in 100% of cases its related to scamming and spamming.
In reality its nothing like web2.
Streaming sponsorships
I asked around. It's a way different nowadays, how it was in 2018-19. I have to admit, prices are 2-3x+ , but still the most (cost) effective.
No1 change: got just few answers, but except 1, all came from agencies, managers, not streamers directly. It wasn't like this before. so no direct offers, you know how these operate, need to fix lots of things to be able give offers.
Hourly rate (actively spend the stream with advertising product) is starting from the $2-3k range for an over 1k average live watchers streamer case.
I explained for 1 how this could work regarding payment (the DHF) thing. Why need some from/to range as a basic. They gave me a link, they created a tool based on their streamer clients previous contracts, so you just type here the twitch streamer name, and it gives a range. They wrote, it's more accurate in less popular streamers case, with 1-3k average live watchers. (i think, for profit maximizing purposes they over-shoot the real cost, amount a bit)
https://novo.tv/twitch-sponsorship-rate-calculator
I am sure, these costs could be lowered, if a native english speaker, and relevant person, could explain them the long term earning potential for streamers with Hive, and the benefits of their audiance, but at least stuck at the minimum of the mentioned range.
They also mentioned kick.com is taking away some of the cheaper streamers, but on that platform, it could be done too.
Another one have lots of esports clients, they have pretty wild variety of sponsorships. banners, wearing logos, sponsor them on specific events, even sponsor the specific event itself etc.
i guess, you know twitchtracker, i wasnt aware how big pump the covid-show did, but its slowly declining, so it could be done very cost effectively, just have to find the right ones.
Out of curiousity, I just asked few agencies with lots of streamer clients (all kind of categories), who are organizing campaigns like this, would they even do such things, and what they can offer for crypto projects, how many streamers are familiar, did crypto ads before. i guess they will be back in the next week.
so, i don't see why it couldn't work in some form, and it's not that expensive, how you wrote, even if it's already not that cheap how i thought. definitely could be more effective instead of actual leofinance, valueplan ads, onboarding.
I just got another quote, where they describe exactly CCV numbers and prices - as they wrote, you can negotiate further with them, sure if someone explain them the long term potential, earning, benefits for the streamers and their followers, it can be further reduced. now it's not so far from that what i thought. how i thought, that calculator what another sent is overpriced.
These guys have half+ million followers, during (or after) a stream usually they got more than 200-500k unique watchers on their videos, next to high ccv.
i think, this is the most efficient way to advertise Hive. cheapest for target audiance.
I can send you through on discord, or in email what i got (the streamers name and management agencies), and you can make it happen if you think so.
You do see now what amounts we are talking about? You went from your** 2-6k** for 10 hours of promotion to the cheapest you listed being for 7k CCV at around 70k USD for 10 hours of promotion.
You yourself now saw what i told you initially that this is expensive as fuck and even the target audience isnt set well.
You can blow a million dollars like this on a few streamers in just 1 day.
2-6k for 10 hours, sure. 70k no way in hell is this a smart way to spend money. You would seriously support a proposal saying that it will spend 70k USD on Emily to stream about Hive for 10 hours.
Be serious now? Would you support that?
it cost like that in 2019. and not top streamers, you made deal directly with them. These are top50-100 streamers.
pretty sure, these prices can be pushed down by 20-50%, especially if you explain how they can further earn on Hive, make longer term deal about their activity (weekly 1-2 blog on Hive), even if streaming just 1 time offer. And in that way, Hive benefits a lot from this.
No, for 1 streamer I wouldn't spend that much, but for 3 times 1 hour spending 50-100k for 5 top streamer, yes no doubt, i would.
Wasting 100 and 100k for rally car and all the nonsense you spend money, what provenly don't bring users, especially not in mass, or spending that for this, sure, I would spend for a streamer like this. If I compare it to 1 rally car, I would even spend all that money on 1 streamer, because I know, it's working, and it brings users!!!
i could even mention leofinance, with their insane promises without result (and report). How much does that cost? $150-200k? zero result!
and you really think, is this the expensive??? 🤣 think again...
You cant take the projects you think are a waste to justify what would obviously be a waste. You justify it by the merits of what youre proposing.
You went from a few thousand USD to 70k USd. THat is what you sent. You yourself saw that its not so easy and simple to promote Hive. Nor is it cheap.
A Hive car is a car thats a longterm investment. Whatever you think about the rally car aside. A streamer promoting it is just a few hours of promotion for huge money.,
As i just wrote, you can negotiate with them, make a proper deal.
well, your insane high 20-30k USD for a 15 second promotion is the out of reality, and just shows, you never even went after this (what i told, Hive need a serious marketing project manager). if we compare it to that, i was much nearer to actual numbers.
obviously, you don't know how a similar marketing campaign building up on twitch. you don't start with big ones, but with small ones, making giveaways, promotions for their audiance, when the word has spread, it went viral, you do with bigger ones, so it's not limited only for a certain streamer audiance, but pretty much way over 50%+ of active twitch users, lets say in a month. even with the given prices, it can be done for the cost, what the rally car has taken in this year. going viral on twitch, or lets race in monaco! up to what you really want to achieve from that money. growing Hive, or enjoy your hobby... :)
and i never said I would spend 70k, you try to push it in my mouth, i told what it cost, when i was involved in a similar one years ago. dont need to be 10hours, obviously.
:) a car, in any form, never can be an investment. definitely not as a sponsorship for a web3 project. nor the bike racing - even if that's 'just' $20k in this year so far, not $200k like your hobby... :)
why don't you post a poll about it, with real numbers, the hourly rates what they gave, what would people think, what is worthy, spend $200k+ in a year for a rally car, or spend for few top streamers and lots of smaller ones within a campaign on Twitch, in form to get them longer term onboard with their audiance?
you know the answer, i know the answer, everybody knows the answer.
you could also add the leofinance money wasting, the wrestling nonsense, some of these 5k+/conference attendances, vibes etc. and you end up way over $500k spend for nothing in a year, what didnt bring a single user... so the money is there, just spent totally wrong.
actually, i think, you don't really want to grow Hive, because current controllers, whales have a fear they lose control if Hive grows, so no more privilige accessing to the money tap. nothing else makes any sense.
Thats the first thing i went after. Literally the first. A youtuber. I have their name, their manager name. Emails. Then I looked at crypto ones. Double the price.
So I know exactly how much it costs.
You gave a number 2-6k for 10 hours from a 1 million follower account, or whatever it was. I said... alrite. I want to see who it is he thinks would do it for so little of that size.
YOu came back to me with the lowest option of 7k CCV and a cost of 70k.
I dont know what it is you want. This obviously isnt a realistic thing to do by your own metrics that are waaaaaay off.
now you stuck with this 10 hours long thing... i don't understand why, when it can be done in many forms, cost effectively. (and just ignore everything else)
so you think, everything goes fine, DHF money well spent, in the most effective way and this is the maximum Hive can reach, best case stagnating DAU - seeing dapps, declining -, plummeting Hive price (and yes, DHF part of the reason of that)?
obviously, nothing. i get it! fortunately, i am out of Hive! just out of curiousity, i will make a post, poll, lets see what the few others think about it.
No. Thats why I gave you a chance of telling me what it is you think would work and be a better way to spend money.
Your initial projection on which you base at least a part of your dissatisfaction with Hive promotion, and was your own solution to making it better, was so incredibly off from real figures after your own research!!
And you still persist as if it is a good idea. STILL! After you see with your own eyes from your own research that its not as simple as you think it is.
Instead of changing your tune and now finally understanding the difficulties present you persist. Now you will have a poll.
Go ahead. I love polls. Ill just link this convo here.
And btw, the reach of each influencer is directly tied to the price of promotion. There are market prices for this too.
Look. Ill give anyone the time of day. 10HP, 1million HP. Ill talk to anyone.
But this is kind of like seeing those flat earth guys doing a test, and their own test proving to them that the Earth indeed isnt flat. And they still refuse to accept it.
A reasonable person... and im not saying youre not reasonable... would take what they saw themselves come from their own research and they would adjust their own initial position now that they see that things arent as clear cut as they thought.
I hope you do as well. Good luck with the poll.
Less than 10% of all existing Hive+HP combined vote for the return proposal.
Problem is not a lack of decentralization. Problem is that not enough people care.
good to see your still here :)
That actually made me smile. Thanks.
good to see you're still here seeing good :)
me too
I think you misunderstand the situation.
Yes, Splinterlands runs on Hive but most Splinterlanders are completely unaware of and indifferent to the engineering, cos we are playing a game.
I doubt there are many splinterlanders that own any Hive at all.
And now the Splinterlands community can see several damn good reasons to not be like that anymore.
I'm aware many are somewhat disconnected. That can easily change. Becomes a beneficial change for all involved.
If the very people who love the game don't want to support it or contribute to its success, why should I?
I have played Splinterlands every single day without fail since discovering it in early 2021. As such, I have apparently been using the Hive blockchain every single day.
As those actions are not published as posts, I get no HP from that activity, despite using hive more than most of you actual Hivers.
To a gamer, Hive is just the engineering it runs on, so not at all interesting per se.
Of course, Hive is much more than that, and its potential is enormous, but the Hive culture is sort of horrible,
You downvote each other in mean and spiteful ways all the time and actually look down on Splinterlanders. I have spent the last year reaching out to Hivers and they almost all just ignore you! One even told me he did not want to listen to me, even though I am trying to grow Hive!
Hive needs to become more open and welcoming, because right now it is realising its potential.
You guys should totally reach out to and support splinterlands!
Have you voted for this proposal?
Hive is just a blockchain. That's like asking a tree to hug you back. All over the internet you'll run into shitty people. They should be the least of your worries.
I'd rather see the Splinterlands community contributing to its own success rather than making excuses and passing the buck. No matter how much people want to pressure me or attempt to guilt trip me into it, I won't budge on that position.
Hive is way more than just a blockchain....
I don't understand the first sentence of your second paragraph, and as far as I know we were chatting, with no thought to pressure you or guilt you into anything, so please chill dude! 😀
I'm chill. It's all good.
You have 70 HP. You came to me with some promises of a grand idea that will bring investors and that you will make a game 100 times bigger than Splinterlands. Not even an idea. a PROMISE OF AN IDEA.
I responded very nicely to your grandiose claims that sound pretty nuts if im being honest.
Now ive seen you 5-6 times already talking nonsense that Hivers arent open or welcoming.
What youre doing is sort of horrible.
Firstly, I am a splinterlands player and not particularly paying attention to HP.
I came to you and asked you if I could explain my plan and ideas to you and you declined.
I made no promises at all, I just told you what I was going for and you did not want to hear me out.
Similarly, I made no grandiose claims at all.
I have reached out to many hivers over the last year. To give you some credit, you did respond to my request to talk, albeit if only to say no, without having anything like enough info to make any kind of assessment.
The vast majority of you hivers have simply ignored my polite requests to talk, so my experience is that Hivers are not at all welcoming or open.
If that is "sort of horrible", I can only apologise, but I have been truthful and respectful at all times, which you and your fellow Hivers, with one or two notable exceptions, largely have not.
Sorry if that is disturbing, but it is at least true and accurate in terms of what my experiece has been....
Your idea with questions like:
All grand claims. I explained to you that you need to build reputation on Hive that you need to prove to you can actually do any of this stuff.
From the point of view of anyone reasonable talking to someone with 70HP claiming this stuff without even building any kind of reputation onchain is a waste of time.
I explained to you what you need to do and that you dont build a consensus by DMing a random hiver.
You do it by proving that you can deliver even the smallest thing to Hive and building a reputation for yourself.
You saw that as you did and were extremely happy to paint Hive in a bad light because of it in the discord and now here.
I did not say no. I told you what you need to do. Even if I did say no, which i did not, that has no bearing on your idea working or not. An idea thats not even an idea. Just big claims of stuff you can do without previously proving you can do any of it.
Do you go through your DMs on Twitter and give the time of day to random people you dont know in your spam inbox? Im sure you dont. What about those telling you: "I can bring millions of dollars of investment to your project."
I took the time to help you out to the best of my ability and gave you a course of action. You responded with... Hivers arent welcoming and open.
What you are is disingenuous which is clearly why people shouldnt take claims like you made seriously or respond to them. It was my fault giving you the time of day. Now we just have another FUDer to add to idiots like Bulldog to this conversation.
I knew you were a Splinterlander and a Hive Witness when I reached out to you and, as your profile says you are in Marketing, as am I, I thought you might think I was at least worth hearing out, rather than leaping to assumptions as you actually did.
Your "advice" was that I need to prove I can do something before doing something, which is literally impossible.
A rational response would be to listen to my plan, ask thoughtful questions, and if you found it stacked up, give it your support and if it doesn't, point out what is wrong.
I don't know what your business background or experience is, but there is nothing at all strange about reaching out to influential people to gather consensus and support for new initiatives.
Finally, as you like quotes so much, what i asked you was
"I am trying to build consensus and support for the plan, so if I could gain that from you, it would be awesome. All I ask is let me lay it out for you and you can see for yourself if it stacks or not, and so worth supporting or not".
To which you replied "There isnt really much I can help you with now. especially put my name behind an idea you might have. especially if you will request funding for it.
You have to prove you can deliver something or build value for Hive before you can get a real answer from anyone. Sorry."
In summary, you refused to listen, leapt to conclusions, and blew me off without ever taking the trouble to find out if my plan had any merit at all.
Those are the facts mate,
I had to look up disingenuous and it equates to deception, so again you have just made stuff up, (hurtful, insulting stuff), when you could have just as easily and with less effort asked a question or two and actually learned something.
All in all, you have been exactly what I said about Hivers, which is you are not a group that is either open or welcoming.
You try and paint that as fud, aka fear, uncertainty, and doubt. No idea where you pulled that from but it is just as false as your other unmerited attacks on me.
Don't worry though, I don't hold grudges and won't be getting involved in downvoting or blacklisting people, which is just petty.
I would strongly recommend taking a more fact based, question lead, approach rather than making stuff up, but you do you! 😀
No, its not impossible at all. How do you think I got in the position to do the things I do? Not wanting to put work in doesnt make things impossible.
I gave you a rational response. Show the community you can do any of the things you claim and people will take you seriously.
I told you that is not how you build a consensus. I dont know you. I dont know what you can do. Youre not active on Hive and havent shown youre capable of anything, let alone the big things you claim.
I listened to you plenty and explained everything in detail. I explained it to you again here. Hive is a reputation based community. Thats why we have no rugs here. You have no reputation and are clearly unwilling to generate any.
The first step is understanding Hive. Understanding decentralization. Being part of discussions. I guess this here what youre doing is a good step in that direction.
Being given an honest and helpful answer and then painting that as us Hivers (news flash, youre a hiver too) not being open and welcoming is disingenuous.
Again. Disingenuous.
I am sure you think you are making sense and it is probably impossible to talk you down, so I think I will just drop this conversation as it lacks the commitment to honesty and transparency that I expect.
Thanks for proving my point for me though.
You either understand decentralization or you dont. If youre unwilling to learn, I cant help you.
There is no quick road to the point where your voice matters. The only way there is to use it. You tried appealing to me as if im an authority, as if that will get you anywhere quickly. Thats not how stuff works here.
You need to build yourself up. No one can do that for you. And thats as honest and transparent of an answer you can get.
This is really going to be my final attempt to get through to you...
Please consider that questions are more useful than assumptions, which are so very easy to get wrong....
I was reaching out to you as another member of the collective that is hive. Building consensus amongst a collective is the right thing to do. hive is dependent on its OGs.
Apparently you don't know what networking is, which is weird for someone helping run a blockchain...
Although I have been opposing centralised authority since i was a teenager, been involved in blogging for nearly 20 years, and in crypto since 09, you know all about me and what I am trying to do. Right!
You appear to be discriminating against me cos I haven't blogged on Hive, but that isn't why I am here.
Furthermore it is frankly reckless and not a little weird to judge business plans by somebody's track record as a blogger.
I suspect if we count up all the SPL games I have played continuously for over three years, I have been on Hive more than you! Maybe we gamers should get some credit for that...
Anyways, you appear to be stuck in your little groove of faux righteousness, and there is no.one to lift the stylus for you, so I don't know what else to say to you other than you really need to drink more coffee!
Discriminating? You dont need to blog. I havent seen you involved with anything. Havent seen you contributing to Hive. I dont know you. I dont know what youre capable of. You havent shown me anything you did or can do, yet you make big claims. How is that discrimination?
Where is your Hive track record? What have you done so far? Again... you cannot expect anyone to take you seriously with claims like you make without having anything to showcase.
How is that weird or reckless?
Ive played SPL since launch. Owned cards before there even was a game. So, no... you havent been here longer than me as if that matters at all.
SHOW THAT YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU CLAIM TO BE CAPABLE OF. Even a part of it. Go network. Deliver something to SPL, lets see if you can do something there. Deliver something to Hive.
You rode in on a bicycle and claim you can get a bunch of Ferraris here.
You need to beat the skepticism. Not call people that are reasonably skeptical unwelcoming and not open.
In which ways do you think I should contribute to Hive?
Indeed, which ways to contribute on Hive are there?
To me, it is primarily just the platform Splinterlands runs on. As mentioned above, it is only through the kindness and patience of others that I have come to understand Hive is more than that.
As to discrimination, you keep refusing to listen to me cos I lack hive profile. That IS discrimination.
The way to know if you can take someone seriously is you listen to what they have to say and decide if it stacks up.
You have not done that, you have made up stuff, hurled accusations, and basically done everything but listen!
Frankly, listening to me would have taken less time than this frustrating chat has!!
I have no literally idea what you are on about when you say contribute before you will listen. If you won't listen then I can't contribute.
It is by getting to know each other that we can build trust, not by some random blockchain data.
Telling me to go network is hilarious advice, cos I am trying to network with you and other hivers and you keep rebufffing me.
Consider this, if I am even halfway onto something, that is significant for both hive and splinterlands, and if, as I believe it can, this plan works out, it could be transformative for both.
Sure, kind of big claims perhaps, but what if it is all true and possible? You owe it to yourself, hive and splinterlands to at least find out, right?
Maybe it is you that needs to beat your own scpeticism....
Come on, man, loosen up and let me talk with you. I promise not to bite! Or suck!!
In so many words, that's all he's trying to tell you. Get out there, get to know people. Some will listen. Some won't. Some will be rude, some will be kind, and all things in between. That's life. If you have big plans, you have all the freedom in the world here to act on them. Some might approve, others might not. That's life. Your success is your responsibility. It's not up to anyone else but you.
Yes, you are very right!
I am doing my best to meet people, which is mostly happening on discord, where many hive communities hang out.
Community is very important to me and I don't want to act in isolation as some might do, I want to build a group that shares the vision and purpose of the new dao.
LB is both an OG Splinterlander and a Hive Witness, so I thought he would at least want to hear my input, as my plan can help support both the chain and the game, but apparently not.
As you said, some might approve. others might not, which is of course perfectly fine and to be expected. To be ignored and belittled based on an absence of facts is what sticks in my throat a bit though, but it won't remotely deter me. 😀
The most successful street performer right now is surrounded by a crowd of people enjoying the music. At the exact same time, that street performer is also the most annoying human on that corner, getting a lot of dirty looks. At the exact same time, that successful street performer is also the most ignored human in the vicinity. For every 1 that stops to listen, 200 keep on walking and pay no attention. That's what success looks like.
I like that, good one!
Ugh man.. Post it on Hive in an open forum. Make it concrete, ping me, ill read it.
It's always been my plan to do that, when the time comes...
However, as someone with not much profile, as you so kindly pointed out repeatedly, I was, indeed am, far more concerned about being voted out of existence by people I don't even know.
Maybe you don't see some of the aggressive upvoting and downvoting that goes on on hive but, as a noob who has only been here a relatively short while, it scares the crap out of me.
That is why I have been trying to introduce myseñf and the plan to people such as yourself.
I can do a lot but I can't do everything and building a great team, largely based on splinterlands and hive, is mission critical, as well as offering employment to people in our community.
Come on man. Someone will downvote your idea post. Nonsense.
Aggressive downvoting? What aggresive downvoting? The few scammers? Idiots working against Hive? No one proposing anything of value has ever been downvoted here for that reason.
I see it all the time and get told about other people's experiences too, and it really happens. You are possibly too close to the wood to see the trees....
My original comment here triggered many more words for me to read. I hope I'm not interrupting.
May I offer you some advice?
yes please
You'll never find the perfect world.
I realize that sounds like an evil fortune cookie, so I'll take your situation I'm reading here and put it somewhere else.
Let's say you have a lot to offer and you think Chicago is the place it all needs to happen.
Do you say to yourself, "I have so much going for me and such great things to offer this world. But since people get shot here in Chicago, I'll do nothing instead."
Sure, some people do get shot in Chicago. Majority are not walking around with wounds though. Why? And why are there so many others able to achieve great things in Chicago? Do they have superpowers? No. They're regular people just like you, getting shit done.
Now look around this platform. If you feel this is the place to get shit done, you're wise to be aware of issues, but don't forget to look at the majority not experiencing those issues and actually getting a lot of shit done.
Don't let your fears hold you back.
There. I turned it into a normal fortune cookie.
Have a good one.
Cheers!
I've been on the chain 8 years in just a couple of days. Over the years I've seen some aggressive downvoting, usually overblown egos having a pissing match. Often with collateral damage.
I've not seen a lot of that going on in the last couple of years so, I'd be curious to see what you claim and learn the story behind the downvotes. There is always a story, even if you disagree with it.
If you're not into blogging anymore, there is the option of using dBuzz and 'tweeting' to build a profile. They will show up in the All Posts section of your profile. If you're more into sharing pictures, there's LikeTu.
Hive is more than blogging.
Unfortunately, there have been plenty of rugs on the hive; some are made of 200k USD from hivers. However, in this particular case, I know Femi is working on a pitch deck and has meetings lined up with investors. Grandiose ideas need money. In this case, it doesn't have to be from DHF, but no one on the hive should say no to extra money coming in from outside.
I agree with the reputation part. But we should encourage ideas and empower people if they come to hive from outside. The HP a person owns should not be a sign of their dedication to hive. Time is the most important resource you can give to this chain, and the users, just like you, inspire many others to the time dedicated to hive.
Its a thing of the past. When it comes to grant approval or anything related to the DHF rugs arent a thing here simply due to the reputation aspect.
No one is saying no to anything. He needs to show that he can actually do any of the things he claims. Those are big claims.
By design it is a sign of that in part. But if you dont have the HP you still need something to showcase. That is then even more of a necessity.
Hes not active on Hive. I dont know him. Barely anyone that isnt in the Splinterlands discord here knows him.
How reasonable is it to take anything seriously he claims he can do?
Its simply not.
He can still do all the things he claims he wants to do. Thats what decentralization allows. No one is stopping him. But he has to show something. Right now hes just some random unknown guy with an unknown value assigned to him. Hes just a big question mark.
I dont get why that is so hard for him to understand.
I don't know why it is so hard for you to understand that people love Hive BECAUSE of Splinterlands, not because it has a desire to be a home for decentralised social media.
I would support that aspiration but a lot more would need to be done first to make that waaaaaay eaasier.
As to this reputation aspect, I am amazed you don't see the flaws with that or the way it drives an inward looking cliqueyness, which is exactly what you have done to me!
Fact is, you do not have enough info to be able to come to any opinion about my plan but that hasn't stopped you doing so, but apparently the fact I am not blogging on Hive means it must be dodgy.
I might be a random unknown guy to you, but that is also what you are to me, and so far only one of us has been unwelcoming and hostile, which kind of proves my point.
I really would not mind if you heard the details and then said this can't work for reason x or y, but all you have dome is prove my point that hive is indeed unwelcoming and not open!
Would you like to start over?
Not true at all. Decentralized social media or not.. Why someone uses Hive and for what is entirely a subjective thing.
Im here because its the only decentralized community blockchain where anyone can do absolutely anything they put their mind to and isnt subject to any central authority. Each person doing anything here is an authority!
Its a community run blockchain. The entire point is that you build you value through being a part of the community. You can call it what you want but no one will approve of anything, even on centralized chains without you showing you can actually deliver something.
There is nothing to start over. Youre on Hive. Youre a Hiver like me. A generally unknown individual claiming you can deliver big things. Maybe you can. I dont know.
Show you can do something. Convince a few people. I will have no problem listening to you then. I might even support it. Right now your presence here is in its infancy.
Anything you want to make happen depends entirely on you.
There is a reasonable expectation from both sides. I can't profess to understand anyone's understanding. If we could summarise what we want to say in one sentence, we would have fewer paragraphs from talented people wasting their time in circular arguments.
Making stuff takes time, femi's ideas should still be empowered with help if he pitches them for validation/polish in the meantime. I know he is working on things which you have not seen yet.
"Come back to me when you have made a pre-proof of concept before I consider validating your idea seriously."
Is this a decent summary @lordbutterfly ?
It wont be enough. Anyone handling money coming from Hive, especially in cases like this needs to show he can both deliver and is trustworthy. He needs to deliver even the smallest part of what he claims he can do to be taken seriously since he is fairly new in dabbling with Hive workings.
What I did years ago was help return 200 thousands USD that were stuck in an escrow back to the DHF. Money that would never get back to Hive otherwise. From that point it was easy for everyone to trust me with Hive funds in all cases.
Im not saying he needs to do something big like that but he needs to deliver something, anything so people looking at it can say:
"Yeah, this guy can do some serious stuff and he put this amount of work for Hive or SPL. We can trust he can deliver more in the future."
There's this weird wave of people with no skin in the game or history who approach one and demand support because they'll be the gem who will bring in thousands. They gotta realize they're not the only one and that senior members of this community have heard that line over and over again with most of the time just being a ditch effort for some post rewards before they disappear.
You have dipshits fostering a negative attitude towards Hive and not many pushing back. Its a problem. Thats why theres a disconnect.
Its like having an enemy in your bed.
A group of people that are a part of the community actively working against it.
Oh shit. It's the deep state.
You know deep state is so deep that no one can ever know who they are. They might be mole people. Or Pegasuses with thick mustaches made of bronze and sprinkles.
haha. No.
Its a few guys I could name you right now. Just had run in with one of the aholes on twitter today. Theyre about as deep as a drunk Kardashian.
I look forward to the day I too get to use this line.
It takes roughly over 15% of the total staked HIVE in the entire system to get a proposal passed, so I think that's an impossibly high bar to expect of any project. I would venture to guess that there is no other project on Hive whose active users have more HP combined than the Splinterlands community.
I directly address this in the post:
We have purchased millions of HIVE tokens off of external markets, we have burned millions of HIVE tokens to create accounts, we have funded and initially designed and built two of the most widely used tools on the platform - Hive Engine and Hive Keychain - and we have brought thousands of users and tons of attention to the Hive blockchain during that time.
That being said, if you don't feel that this project has contributed enough to the Hive ecosystem, or will be able to contribute enough in the future, to warrant support from the DHF then I respect your opinion and your decision not to support the proposal.
This. I'd be shocked if the Splinterlands community isn't able to push this through.
I'll hang back. I don't know enough about Splinterlands and the community. Sure, you've done some great things in the past. Currently I'm not even sure if the Splinterlands community wants this. So I'm waiting to see how everyone feels about it, so I hope they show up.
My position has already been explained here so I won't repeat myself, and I also don't expect you to read any of it but if you want to, you can. It'll help clear up where I truly stand on this.
If it gets to the point where everyone has done everything they possibly can and still need help, that's when I'd feel confident supporting this is a good idea. It would be incredibly irresponsible of me to vote blindly or speak for a community I can't say I'm a part of.
My words again. The value can be observed when your community steps up to help on the day you need them the most. I want to see them participating in this rather than me participating so they don't have to.
P.S. The Hive Keychain Development Proposal is something I already support.